aka Sarah

Bureaucrat Founder
  • I live in Rio Piedras, PR
  • I was born on June 7
  • My occupation is Legal Mercenary Paper-Pusher
  • I am Female
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  • Anything in particular we want added? Ive got the fighter and vehicle briefings, was going to fill in blanks as time permits.

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  • If we accept the TOG as being at least a billion worlds (from billions, and Ive read you annex)... The something must be in error with the Commonwealth numbers. Its listed somewhere as 40,000 stars, implying roughly 40,000 worlds more or less.

    You cant have a meaningful war between a polity of a billion worlds and one of 40,000. That would be like a 'war' between Conway Arkansas and NATO plus the old Warpac. Also, the volume of space for the Commonwealth is waaay too big.

    Suggest that 40,000 worlds is a misprint by 3 orders of magnitude. 40 Million would make them 4% of the size of the TOG... Still trivial, but at least not a sneeze.

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    • Quote:

      "and on rechecking your numbers, didnt you have your average calculations at around a million worlds?"

      I wrote the article before I remembered the number of Illustrus senators, so... yeah, the numbers are a bit off. But in my defense, whether 0.5, 1.0, or 1.5 million, it is still orders of magnitude less than the "billions of worlds" advertised in canon.

      Regarding spending and CW numbers, I'll add that, IMHO, the worlds on the Shannedam front are likely on a full-scale war status; most of the able-bodied population is serving active duty to protect their homes. Nearby worlds are mobilized to resist a perceived "inevitable" assault, with volunteers and conscripts coming in from the rest of the CW, from the Free Naram, and even Kess'Rith volunteers.

      Also, it seems TOG wants to capture the CW, which is why they have refrained from large-scale orbital bombardment to attain their military goals. I would not be surprised if fear (for lack of a better word) of Kess reprisal at such tactics on their CW allies helped maintain the situation in check.

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    • I dont think you need to make any defense of yourself.  Its still the best (only?) treatment of the subject I've seen.

      Regarding spending numbers in general - given what a tiny portion of the Commonwealth population its legions represent, Im forced to consider that either 1.)  They ARENT on a war footing, 2.)  there are HUGE military forces (garrison forces?) in existence soaking up a lot more population and money than the legions are, or 3.)  The listed 500K Legions and 10,000 BB Groups represent a spending limit, and high end military forces are, in the RL universe, constrainted by resources/cost rather than by manpower.

      The last seems most likley to me, though the costs for civilian ground cars concern me.  If civilian ground vehicles, at around 13K to 16K each, represent a similar 'price point' to modern vehicles (roughly 2 or 3 times that amount, so 26K to 48K for a 'typical' model, which sounds about right in the U.S.).  The unit cost for a Ford Class Carrier is roughly $10B US Dollars (2016).  If a talent has 3 times the value of a dollar, then a Ford Class Carrer costs roughly 3.3 Billion dollars.

      The U.S. supports roughly 10 of those, on a population of roughly 333 Million.  So 333 Million people are footing the bill on 33 Billion in capital ships.  I love it when math works out.  10 Million people at a first world standard of living pay for 1 Billion Talents in capital ships.

      A Shiva class Battleship, kinda the benchmark of modern TOG construction is about 25 Billion talents.  So 250 Million people to support 1 BB.  

      TOG is, were guessing, around a Million worlds.  Judging by Shannendam County, call it 1B people per world.  4BBs per world.  4 Million Capital ships.

      The TOG has 100,000 Battleship Groups, with between 2 and 5 Battleship Squadrons per group.  Call it for convenience sake 4, for 400,000 Capital Ships.

      We are within an order of magnitude.  Thats not bad.  Ill note in passing that the Commonwealth, at 5% of the size of the TOG (roughly) supports a navy that is 10% of the size of that of the TOG.

      Other factors (to explain why the TOG Navy IS 1/10th the relative size of the US)

      1.)  Perhaps the TOG spends a lot more on small combatants/defense ships proportionally than the US.  We dont invest a lot in the coast guard, whereas one assumes that the TOG 'garrisons' every world with at the least fighters and police cutters.

      2.)  Perhaps the standard of living in the TOG is not all their equivalent of 'first world'.  This seems logical.  We are only a few centuries from the revolt against the Kess'Rith, most terraformed worlds are probably relatively less habitable/more expensive to live on than earth (we EVOLVED here, after all), and its no more plausible that all of the TOG is at the highest standard of living and productivity of THERE universe than to assume our world is for its.  When we consider the historically low efficiency of slave labor, there is even more support for this.

      3.)  Perhaps the ground forces consume a relativley larger share of the military pie in the TOG than they do in the US.  GIven the need to garrison potentially restive worlds, this seems likely.  Further, it would help explain the greater Commonwealth naval percentages, both relative to population and relative to ground forces.

      4.)  Perhaps the TOG simply isnt trying very hard.  (this seems unlikely.  Even if its not 'war to the knife' against the Commonwealth, they are only a few centuries away from an existential conflict against a large, powerful, and still very much ongoing Kess'Rith Empire)

      Taken together, especially points 1 and 2, I dont think its unreasonable to assume that the major limiting factor on military power in the RL universe is not manpower, but unit cost.  This paralells the modern U.S. approach, where a relatively small percentage of people under arms consume a (relatively) large percentage of the budget in the form of defense spending.

      Wow, one TLDR later - I find the suggestion that the Commonwealth is in part on a 'war footing' entirely believable, especially the parts closer to the border (as of course, the economies at large could not survive and prosper on a permanent war footing - exhaustion will eventually bring down a nation as surely as invasion)  Its also likely that even the TOG is, spending wise, on a cold war level, and that the military arms of RL universe nations (at least the shiney, offensive arms like Battleship Groups and Strike Legions) are constrained not by manpower, but by cost (cost expressed as skilled labor time and rare materials for command economies.  Even if you dont pay in dollars, every bullet is less butter).

      That got a bit scattered.  I'm sorry.

      ((Note - by our earlier assumptions, and assuming a legion IS 50K folks (between tooth and tail, I can totally see this), then one person per 2000 in Commonwealth is in a Legion.  By comparison, about 1 person in 1600 in the US is an active duty Marine, one in 600 an active duty member of the army, and one in 200 a member of the National Guard.In 1945, one American in 17 was in the army, and one in 11.5 was in the military.  Roughly 35x more than currently in the army, and our current is far higher than the Commonwealth.  Either the RL Universe powers are on 'quiet peace' setting, or the limitations are absolutely based on resources rather than population))

      ((Also-Also note:  WMDs, planet burning, etc. just seems to be 'not a done thing' in the RL universe.. theres really only one exception in cannon that springs to mind, and it horrified EVERYONE, including the Kess'Rith who were its victims - and the Kess'Rith really are the bloody-handed warmongers of the setting.  If it were not possible to conquer a planet with ground forces, then this would not be the case.  This suggests that planetary conquest is possible by a relatively tiny percentage of the defending population... even TEN strike legions is tiny across a whole world.  Yet they can conquer it.  This suggest again that the limitation on military power is financial, rather than population (else insurgencies with second-rate equipment would make planets unconquerable).  Of course, Military forces in the RL universe are incredibly, mind-boggling mobile, so a strike legion (much less orbit capable fighters and space based Orbital Artillery Support) can control an amount of area out of all proportion to their size, and probably moving in low-intensity, very very cheap (relatively) garrison forces (capable of suppressing populations, but not defeating high intensity forces) after the inital conquest defeats any high value defenders))

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  • Recently rediscovered this old classic, and really wanted to thank you for your time and efforts in putting this wiki together and supporting it almost single handedly (from what I can see).  I have enjoyed it immensely, and found it very useful in my own completely silly current hobby - redesigning and 'rationalizing' the Commonwealth Warship lines for rationality and cost effectiveness.

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    • Your setting knowledge is encyclopedic. Ill have to disgest that for a bit.

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    • PS: Does anyone find it deeply disturbing that in all these centuries of FTL travel we have NO reports back from the LMC.. Not one human (or kess, or what-you-will) Marco Polo returning bearing tales of Xanadu and Spices and trade routs across the farthest gap of stars? At least, none I find mentioned in published products...

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    • A FANDOM user
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  • Sarah thanks for setting all of this up.  Admittedly I have been away from the game for a while due to work and moves.  I am back and in full stride with a project to finally bring home Leviathan models for game play.  The models are hung on Thingiverse with the keyword: Leviathan.  I am still looking for other people to help me out with building the models.  I have two print testers and advisors so far, but the more the merrier.  Our conversation has eaten up most of the space this month on the Yahoo Group.  Anyone else interested in helping, please contact me.

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  • Hello Sarah, I am the one who made 2 days ago the first comment about the Spiculum and the Ictus. I am already registered here just did not contribute anything here before and was to lazy to sign in. I have to say that your site is just awesome worthy of the very game system that it is about. Pity that so few of the guys frome the RenLeg forum are here.

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    • Thank you for the effort!

      I'd love to see more people from the RL Group here! I set it up with blog access, forums and chat. Users can even customize their user pages to include links to files over at the RL Group archives.

      Right now site growth is a bit slow, but that is because real life has a way of messing with my free time, but I hope to soon be able to keep adding entries and articles to keep this place growing!

      --Sings-With-Spirits (talk) 21:06, March 18, 2015 (UTC)

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    • A FANDOM user
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  • Happy Birthday Sarah.... I'm Matt Freeman. I live in California. Happy Belated Birthday.. I know the law a little myself.. 

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  • Hi, welcome to TOG ACADEMY: the Renegade Legion Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the TOG ACADEMY: the Renegade Legion Wiki page.

    Please leave me a message if I can help with anything!

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    • A FANDOM user
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  • Hello, We're excited to have TOG ACADEMY: the Renegade Legion Wiki as part of the Wikia community!

    There's still a lot to do; here are some helpful tips and links to get your wiki going:

    All of the above links are a great place to start exploring, and have fun!

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    • A FANDOM user
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